between america, i think, and really growth is having a long-term fiscal plan. what i would like to see, and i really like bob corker, he is a great guy, he's the kind of person we need in the u.s. senate, but i'd like to see some of these cuts locked in now, and i'd like to see some of this entitlement reform locked in today. i don't want to see all of that wait for six weeks. >> hmm. what's the right level for dividends and capital gains, do you think? should they be lower than ordinary income? >> look, i think what you will see is i think they'll both probably go to 20% would be my guess. i don't think you'll see dive dinds go back to ordinary income rates. >> is that okay? >> that's part of bowles-simpson or simpson-bowles, put it back at ordinary rates. what's ordinary rates coming down to? >> we brought ordinary rates down to 23%. you know, that's a horse of a different color. ordinary rates are going to be -- >> is it 23 or 28? that's another thing we always hear. >> well, what we put out is what the zero option was, which got it down to 8% of $70,000. 14% up to $210,000. and a m